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Hardware Specification
09-03-2014, 06:02 AM
Post: #1
Hardware Specification
Now it seems that you are finish developing the yoke and already fix the price

Is there now a final specification available for the yoke
It is important to know the maximum forces and speed of the end-product
For the certification simulator builder must know this values
Also it would be nice to see that on your order page
As soon you are able to communicate the exact values, we will order 2 units
if the parameters meets our requirement.
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09-03-2014, 09:02 AM (This post was last modified: 09-03-2014 09:03 AM by Pat.)
Post: #2
RE: Hardware Specification
Hi Gergrün,


We are still awaiting final delivery of the production power boards and power supplies. Until we have assembled a production unit (using only production parts) Id rather not post anything official. Once a few production units have been built and tested we WILL be posting this info (both here and on the main order page.)

However for reference we have been building the unit with the intention that it will comply with the ICAO standards set out in Doc 9625 AN/938 (2009).

-Pat
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09-04-2014, 05:42 PM
Post: #3
Hardware Specification
Aswell i am very surprises by the fact that your price of the feedback Yoke has risen to a very high fixed price.
Why?

Since there is still not. one Yoke being delivered and/or reviewed ,it is a very high risk to order one from you in far Canada.

In Europe there are for the same price or less very well tested yokes for sale.

In my humble opinion ithink it is very sad that your Kickstarter project in the beginning was a very positieve sign to the flightsimcommunity, but now it is nohing. More than a risky think to deal with.


Please forgive my translationmistakes.....





Harald van de Velde



The Netherlands


Verzonden vanaf mijn iPad met behulp van Tapatalk
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09-04-2014, 07:19 PM (This post was last modified: 09-04-2014 07:20 PM by Pat.)
Post: #4
RE: Hardware Specification
Hi Harald,

Thanks for bringing this up here on the forum! I'd like to get in front of this question/comment as there have been a few people mentioning this issue. I also apologize in advance if I am a bit to forward on how I answer this, but considering this project was started with the assistance of Kickstarter I feel justified in pulling back the veil a bit more than tradition would dictate reasonable.

The original Kickstarter price of $550(can) reflected what we felt was a fair price for what at the time was nothing more than a few prototypes and some rather loft goals. IE fully develop a totally new inverted voice coil actuator technology from idea->design->prototype->a lot more prototypes->production and then figure out how to implement it in a reproducible way into a very specialized product. Back in November of 2013 we weren't very well known, and at least from the perspective of a complete stranger on the other side of the planet we would have been far from a "sure thing". There is no doubt that there would have been substantial perceived risk giving $550 to an unknown company for a product that at the time only existed in the imaginations of a small few. However, this is where the magic of kickstarter comes into its own, as without the backing of the people who supported the campaign we would NOT have been able to raise the additional R&D funds needed to bring this project to fruition (which have accounted to many hundreds of thousands of dollars on top of what has been raised through sales).

Up until very recently only a handful of people have seen/used one of these devices (and most of these were covered under an NDA.) The first few units will be reaching private/institutional hands in the VERY near future, once this happens we fully expect outside reviews of this product to start making the rounds on the interwebs. Assuming people are happy with the product (and I personally think our backers are going to be blown away,) the perceived risk of placing an order is going to fall... sharply.... As such the price has gone up to what we have been told is an average MSRP based on our costs IF we want Iris to be around 2 years from now. I have no doubt that we would be able to sell many, many, more units at say a $550 or even an $800 price point. But the truth is once you factor in labor, overhead, tooling, insurance, lawyers etc $800 doesn't cover costs (let alone future R&D, ongoing support, and all the other colorful things that start ups have to deal with.)

For decencies sake I would very much rather not get into a direct discussion on the pricing/feature comparisons of other producers on this forum (as it feels dirty for some reason.) But from what research we have done we believe that even at our full MSRP of $1500 we are the lowest cost option of any production control loading yoke on the market. I know of two other "entry level" producers in Europe but both have a minimum price point of ~1500 Euros. If there is a 3rd producer out there with a price point lower than that PLEASE shoot me a PM as keeping abreast of industry trends is a pretty important thing for us! Our previous price point of $800 was actually on the low end of most of the high end NON-CL yokes being produced in the States or Europe (that we are aware of.)

There's no doubt cost reductions could be seen if we went to lower quality materials, or if we had these units produced overseas, however high end simulator yokes are a boutique product with a very limited reach, so high volume/low cost is probably going to be a tough sell.


I am sorry if the price change has frustrated anyone, however I hope this post as at the very least given some insight into the reasoning behind the current pricing structure. If anyone has any questions or concerns please dont hesitate to ask me!

-Patrick
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09-05-2014, 07:41 AM
Post: #5
RE: Hardware Specification
In the X-Plane forum i found that you are using
a NEMA 17 stepper motor with 0.48NM for the aileron.
That means about 600gr max. weight on the outer side of the yoke...
Dit you change the motor? Because this will not be
enough force to simulate a realistic feeling.
Other solutions in this price range have around 6 times more power

Anyway i will wait for the final specifications before i make an order...
When you plan to post the technical Data?
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09-05-2014, 05:39 PM
Post: #6
RE: Hardware Specification
Hello again Gergrün!

The thread from X-Org was many many many generations ago, the original prototype used a Nema17 stepper, since the original prototype the roll actuator has changed form numerous times (which is why we have never published hard numbers on anything to date, as it has all been rather......"fluid"). At the moment Kickstarter units are slated to use DC servos with a max torque rating of 170 oz-in (~1.2NM). Now that being said if more force is required for a given application there are other options available (gear ratio changes, larger motors, upgrade to a ring motor etc.) Seeing as most people will be using these units in day to day flying we have been concentrating more on fine control forces, and actuator smoothness vs brute force. From my recollection current ICAO/FAA/TC standards call for 3 lbs for max roll force for a critical engine on T/O. If you do end up placing an order and are intending to have the unit used in a certified system please be sure to contact us before you submit your order as we would be very happy to help design a unit to meet your specific countries requirements. We are currently working with a few folks on custom applications on systems slated for certification.



As to when full performance data will be available: I'm hesitant to give a date so if its critical to your specific application certainly hold off until it IS posted. However I will unofficially state that I will be unhappy if we dont have a full performance spec on production units for October.

All the best and thanks again!
-Pat
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09-08-2014, 07:21 AM
Post: #7
RE: Hardware Specification
Hello Pat

Thanks for the information... i will wait for final specification
before ordering, but the force of 1.2NM will be not enough for our application
we need a minimum of 4NM for the aileron.
How about the feeling of the aileron can you feel the disturbing
cogging effect of the brushed dc-motor?

Thanks

Gergrün
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09-09-2014, 04:59 PM
Post: #8
RE: Hardware Specification
Hi Gergrün!

4NM is certainly doable, although at that level of torque I think we would be better off looking at a ring motor vs a servo. We experimented with larger forces from both steppers and Servo motors, both of these devices induced cogging to what we felt were unacceptable levels. This is one of the big reasons as to why we never pushed the envelope with respects to roll force, as although it IS doable, the cogging using a traditional (low cost) approach takes too much away from the simulation.

That being said the high end commercial systems we've looked at ($50,000+ units) get around this problem by using what are referred to as "zero cogging ring motors" These are very specialized low speed, high torque brushelss DC motors which (when attached to the correct logic) can perform "magic". That being said at volume we were quoted ~$600 each just for the bare component so alas we couldn't include it in the original kickstarter units. All that being said we are working with other commercial clients to build versions of this unit to meet individual commercial/institutional requirements.

Can I ask what standard your looking to build for? Im assuming at 4NM you are not building an FTD, but rather an FFS, or some sort of type specific device?
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09-12-2014, 07:27 AM
Post: #9
RE: Hardware Specification
Hi Pat
I have searching the web and found
other yokes in the market which are only a bit more expensive
then yours (aprox. $2000).
They are able to provide more then 4Nm
and are using brushless motor technology
check also this "bff simulation"
maybe this could be the solution for your problem
Home users, 2Nm maybe is ok but
for a FNPT-I / II certified simulator you will
need 4Nm on aileron or more depends on the aircraft
How's the force on elevator axis?
8kg / 80N would be nice ...

Thanks

Gergrün
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09-24-2014, 11:05 AM
Post: #10
RE: Hardware Specification
(09-12-2014 07:27 AM)gergrün Wrote:  Hi Pat
I have searching the web and found
other yokes in the market which are only a bit more expensive
then yours (aprox. $2000).
They are able to provide more then 4Nm
and are using brushless motor technology
check also this "bff simulation"
maybe this could be the solution for your problem
Home users, 2Nm maybe is ok but
for a FNPT-I / II certified simulator you will
need 4Nm on aileron or more depends on the aircraft
How's the force on elevator axis?
8kg / 80N would be nice ...

Thanks

Gergrün

Hey there Gergrün,

In efforts to keep the cost of the units down (turns out there's a lot going on in these things), we've selected a power rating (250 watts) that we feel provides a good amount of feedback. So far we've received very positive feedback (get it) regarding the forces we produce. Bigger numbers would be nice, but sometimes we have to settle with what we're given. We're gonna make that 250 watts work for ya.

Eventually, (after we catch up with our kickstarter and other outstanding orders) we'll start development on our commercial products. We've got some ideas to increase the force output but it will increase the cost. We really didn't deem this necessary for normal consumer use. For example, this yoke is significantly stronger than the Logitech Force3DPro I have on my desk.
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